And my vote as a sub is only worth 5 as I am so grumpy but I vote for a month's trial of the middle ground. (Subs can auto tranfer but this must be an additional action and once carried out anyone can lodge the protest as an interested 3rd party the sub then must be prepared to justify why he he thought it was so obviously 'cowboy muppetry' that he felt justified in the auto transfer)

Hi all!

Shmazo wrote:.There is a ridiculous protest thread with 77 replies in it at the moment that I feel is a good example of the symptoms of this feature. I am certainly not going to attack or defend any of the actions or positions in that thread - only want to point out that I think it is a symptom of a continuing bad situation with this new arrangement. The original infractions in that protest do not merit such a huge amount of attention, but they are getting it BECAUSE of this system.

Shamazo, I like the way you think in general so I am going to interpret your words like this:
There is a "ridiculous evolution of a protest wich has become in ....."

This protest started as a normal one, whith the symptoms Shamazo coment.
Later appeared other issues: sportsmanship,what we do in the water vs. what we do in sailx, Sailx Community Standards vs censorship,...
Maybe this issues can be commented in new threads....
While I was writing this Okole finally had decided SR broke R18.2. Tnx Okole


Shmazo wrote:The main reason that particular protest is so "heated", in my opinion, is that the initial protest caused an "auto-transfer". Had it not, the protested "non-sub" could have chosen to T, or protested back etc., but instead is FORCED into spinning and the sub is NOT FORCED to file the protest to retain points (assuming they do not exonerate). And so chooses not to file.

I think there are other reasons to become a heated protest, but, let's focus in the protest thing. I think that this system is unfair because the blue text

Shmazo wrote:I do not blame either the sub or the non-sub for acting the way they did - the system has set up this situation putting subs and non-subs at odds...

Sometimes a few subs became suspicious for use this advantage consciously

Shmazo wrote:As Play Up Pompey mentions above - as a sub, if I "auto transfer" a pen to a non-sub, and the non-sub simply complies and spins (what choice do they have?), what is my motivation for filing? The non-sub has already exonerated. So we never find out if I was right or wrong and the learning opportunity (assuming there was a good one), just slips away.

good point

Shmazo wrote:There has to be a better way to deal with the "cowboy muppets" as Big Sulk refers to them (great term). Yes I completely understand that, assuming that "in general" non-subs have a higher likelihood of being "cowboy muppets", it makes sense to put more of the onus on them, but in my opinion this method is just too unfair, too unbalanced etc. Whatever you want to call it.

Agree

Shmazo wrote:I think we need to find a better way. There are some good suggestions above, and I will think about it and try to offer some more constructive suggestions myself as well.

Stay cool everybody.


I am sure that sailx could find a better and more fair protest system, and also other ways of benefit subs

^^^ I don't like the way you guys treat the case, the hearing and the protestee of the mentioned hearing.

All in all there's (un)intentional implying of unfairness in a hailed protest by a long-term and senior community member who has no other aim than to improve this platform.

Constantly referring to this specific hearing with the (un)intentional implication that the protestee was unfair, "but hey, the system needs to change", is as low and as unsportsmanlike as what the referral (un)intentionally seems to say.


Better stay on topic and illustrate your point with general notions is much more respectable than this nonsense. It's appalling really.

The hearing derailed due to unrestrained reasoning and implying bad intent. One contributor even got exposed as a former SailX intrigant.

Keep your arguments clean and non-personal. Use logic rather than emotion

In that protest SR was absolutely right and fully entitled to raise the protest flag. JD did alter course and was close to breaking R16.1. SR thought he did and protested.

The non sub's defence is to spin, counter protest and file. If the sub is found to have fouled and not spun they will be DSQ. I take no notice whatsoever of whether a person is a sub or not when I rule. I simply look at the facts. I'm sure all the other mods are the same on that. It will probably mean that few non subs get DSQd but lots of subs do!

I'm not sure if there are plans afoot to change the system but until there are we have to live with it. The new system should not stop people raising the flag. If the sub has to spin, that is bad luck, frustrating etc for them, but the solution is to subscribe. If they can't afford to or don't want to subscribe that is their affair and they will have to live with the inconvenience.

I understand what you are saying about feeling bad about protesting a non sub & transferring the pen. I feel the same way. PP TT doesn't always seem to work and often the non sub has already started spinning by then.

I understand what you are saying about wanting to protest simply to review later with probably no intention to file. I have long felt the need for a single key to record an incident without protesting. I often want to review later bacause it all happens too quickly for me. At present one way to do that, is to protest the RC but that usually takes too long. So I just try & remember the race and review the full race replay from the regatta classification.

I also feel the red flag punishment has been downgraded. Under the old system, if you protest an RFR the pen transferred. Under the new system all non subs are equivalent to RFR. Albeit if a non sub protests an RFR the pen is transferred.

Similarly Black Flag has been downgraded. They are only awayed if the RE gives them the pen, which it frequently gets wrong.

At the end of the day though, I'm sure Aestela will come up with some revisions & tweaks. Because you are the customer and the customer is always right.

Erasmus wrote:
.^^^ I don't like the way you guys treat the case, the hearing and the protestee of the mentioned hearing.

All in all there's (un)intentional implying of unfairness in a hailed protest by a long-term and senior community member who has no other aim than to improve this platform.

Constantly referring to this specific hearing with the (un)intentional implication that the protestee was unfair, "but hey, the system needs to change", is as low and as unsportsmanlike as what the referral (un)intentionally seems to say.


Better stay on topic and illustrate your point with general notions is much more respectable than this nonsense. It's appalling really.

The hearing derailed due to unrestrained reasoning and implying bad intent. One contributor even got exposed as a former SailX intrigant.

Keep your arguments clean and non-personal. Use logic rather than emotion

Erasmus it’s a funny world as we can all guess what you are referring to but I think your comments may be just a little misplaced. I am sad enough to have gone through this entire thread in response to your comments. By my count out of four pages there are three posts that refer to a specific protest:-

219171
219670
219689

The 1st is refers to a protest by US307/Woody and is probably not the protest that the other two commentators or you obliquely refer to.

I see little personal comment in this particular thread with most points politely made and well argued. There is considerable feeling expressed on how 'the rules' are perceived to affect users, a common desire for fairness but varying views on how best to achieve same and remain viable - to me it is far from a vitriolic attack on either a system or an individual.

I do understand why the Moderators in general may at present be feeling a touch sensitive especially in view of the hundreds or thousands of voluntary hours that they have put in for our benefit. However I am sure that YOU ALL enjoy the overwhelming support of 99% of the users even those who occasionally disagree with one decision or another.

For what it is worth, I think I was pretty clear that I had no emotion one way or the other about the specific protest I referred to - and agree that it had every right to be filed.

Only pointing out that the numerous and somewhat emotional reactions are amplified by the existence of the new system.

Of course I always support the mods - always have, always will.

But I am a long time subcriber and do not feel that this issue will just go away.

Since I have less seniority than Macro and am less grumpy than Big Sulk, let my vote count for 7 - away with this system!

I've been thinking about the reaction to the idea of a system that is equally fair to all. Please understand, and I think and hope I speak for all that we cherish SailX and the efforts put forth by the mods and owners of SailX, but we cherish our ideal of fairness to all more than that. It's one of our core beliefs. I realize we come from varied cultures that put different emphasis on the rights of individuals, vs communities and governments, and the emphasis on individual thought vs tradition, and this affects our different views of these things. So please understand that the idea of a system that is fair to all is not an attack on SailX or the people involved, just a defense of our core belief.

Maybe think of Charlemagne and what he did for society. Perhaps that's what the RRS did for sailing?

Thanks for listening and for all you do.

US307

As Charlemagne is credited with first sponsoring the idea of European Integration - would you mind if I as a good Brit preferred not to think well of him?

I was wondering if I might not know enough about Charlemagne from my Americanized education. Sry no harm intended. I was given to understand he brought about the idea of individual rights under a codified law, as opposed to the whims of what ever monarch happened to be in power. (Although it seems our sytem is suffering under whatever monarch we have in power). Lol. Col(crying out loud).

US307

We're coding a new version to get back to the old style.
A.

Thank you, A!

Thanks!!!!!

Well done and thanks - i would say that is a very popular choice!!

Thanks A!!!

Gracias aestela !

Buena noticia

Please let us know when the change back takes place.

Thanks,

US307

hmmmm

The new version will be deployed this monday or, tuesday.
A.

HMMMMMMMMMM




PS: which will be the next event that sailx will run? London 2012?

A quick patch has been deployed today in all servers.
The pen auto transfer that was associated to raising the P flag has been disabled for non-restricted users.
A.

Thanks A!!

The check is in the mail!!!

US307

aestela wrote:
.A quick patch has been deployed today in all servers.
The pen auto transfer that was associated to raising the P flag has been disabled for non-restricted users.
A.
Thanks Aestela, I think this is the right decision.

Thanks Aestela! That will be a whole lot better!!!

Cheers,
YoungerGun