Iceman vs germo

Myself and Okole take the time to lay out the facts of this protest, and Moreno kindly takes the time to translate for the not so bilingual, which i am tahnkful for. But for what reason, when Enterprise and Shua vote that it should be unresolved yet they give no explanation?

From what I understand in the RRS, unless the rules have changed, when contact is made at least one boat must be penalized.

Is anyone else bothered by this?

P.S. I sensed quite a bit of bias surrounding this protest as several of the authors have had their fair share of battles between each other in the past. I am not negating myself from this fact by any means. In fact, bias is the total reason why I chymed in on this protest. had I thought iceman was wrong, I probably wouldn't have anything to say This is just an observation. I'm not saying that the bias effected the outcome of the protest.

Thanks,
SIN

The protest was ruled UNRESOLVED as the Protest Committee - the Moderators, as appointed by Aestela - could not come to an agreed ruling. This protest has been correctly closed in accordance with Page 6, Appendix 3 of the SailX Sailing Instructions Version 3.5

SINOGIN wrote:
.
P.S. I sensed quite a bit of bias surrounding this protest as several of the authors have had their fair share of battles between each other in the past. I am not negating myself from this fact by any means. In fact, bias is the total reason why I chymed in on this protest. had I thought iceman was wrong, I probably wouldn't have anything to say This is just an observation. I'm not saying that the bias effected the outcome of the protest.



I presume that is directed at me. Very well then.....

Sinogin, I comment on almost every protest. It is rare that I don't do that. I don't care who the protester or protestee are (unless there are repeat offences/Rule 2 issues). Whether it be a personal friend, a SailX friend, a SailX not-so-friend or someone I truly cannot stand, I will most likely put a comment and a ruling in one way or another.

My comments and rulings on protests are never written with bias towards either side. Whoever I feel is wrong under the RRS, I will DSQ.

In the protest in question, I feel iceman's luff left germo no room to avoid. That is my opinion. That is how I ruled.

It really annoys me how, when a mod DSQ's a user who people believe that mod "hates" for some reason, they scream shout and roar "BIASED!!!!" Although when that mod rules in favour of that same users other protests, nothing is remembered. I find it insulting, and am not impressed with this thread.....

SINOGIN wrote:

Is anyone else bothered by this?

Not me. Unresolved protests are very usual. It happens when there is no clear consensus among mods (althoug the non-mods comments are also considered).


P.S. I sensed quite a bit of bias surrounding this protest as several of the authors have had their fair share of battles between each other in the past. I am not negating myself from this fact by any means. In fact, bias is the total reason why I chymed in on this protest. had I thought iceman was wrong, I probably wouldn't have anything to say This is just an observation. I'm not saying that the bias effected the outcome of the protest.
Bias by mods is possible (mods are human after all).
Personal bias are very difficult because all mods would notice immediately.
Bias against a certain cases, situations or behaviours sure. We don't enforce a single view and we expect some differences when judging and those differences might be seen as bias.

A.

I've read the protest hearing several times now. I cant seem to find any legitimate facts stated in Germos deffense. All I see are moderators saying they could go either way and that they vote for unresolved. That's what i have a problem with.

Frodo wrote:
.The protest was ruled UNRESOLVED as the Protest Committee - the Moderators, as appointed by Aestela - could not come to an agreed ruling. This protest has been correctly closed in accordance with Page 6, Appendix 3 of the SailX Sailing Instructions Version 3.5

SINOGIN wrote:
.
P.S. I sensed quite a bit of bias surrounding this protest as several of the authors have had their fair share of battles between each other in the past. I am not negating myself from this fact by any means. In fact, bias is the total reason why I chymed in on this protest. had I thought iceman was wrong, I probably wouldn't have anything to say This is just an observation. I'm not saying that the bias effected the outcome of the protest.



I presume that is directed at me. Very well then.....

Sinogin, I comment on almost every protest. It is rare that I don't do that. I don't care who the protester or protestee are (unless there are repeat offences/Rule 2 issues). Whether it be a personal friend, a SailX friend, a SailX not-so-friend or someone I truly cannot stand, I will most likely put a comment and a ruling in one way or another.

My comments and rulings on protests are never written with bias towards either side. Whoever I feel is wrong under the RRS, I will DSQ.

In the protest in question, I feel iceman's luff left germo no room to avoid. That is my opinion. That is how I ruled.

It really annoys me how, when a mod DSQ's a user who people believe that mod "hates" for some reason, they scream shout and roar "BIASED!!!!" Although when that mod rules in favour of that same users other protests, nothing is remembered. I find it insulting, and am not impressed with this thread.....

Thank you for the comments concerning this thread Frodo. I was not targeting you, I'm sorry you feel insulted. I was purely making an opinion based on my own observation. Nothing more. It annoys me as well when people complain and criticize a moderator's opposing decisions and completely ignore their previous merrits. That's not what I am trying to do here.

Best regards,

I ruled it, and closed it. I don't know the protestee or protestor from a bar of soap, and as far as I'm aware I've had no run-ins with either.

There were 3 Mods (including me) that called it as unresolved, so if you think there is bias, then it looks like the majority of the mods are out to get you, or whomever you think they were biased against.

Quite frankly to penalise one party over the other, would in my opinion, have been biased.

I did not say that bias affected the answer. In fact, I said the opposite. the majority of the moderators, if not all, who were in favor of deciding that the protest was unsolvable stated no facts defending germo's case. there were many facts stated in favor of iceman's defense.

This is my topic of concern.

SINOGIN wrote:
.I did not say that bias affected the answer. In fact, I said the opposite. the majority of the moderators, if not all, who were in favor of deciding that the protest was unsolvable stated no facts defending germo's case. there were many facts stated in favor of iceman's defense.

This is my topic of concern.

What is the opposite of "I did not say that bias affected the answer"?

None of what you said above seems to make much sense to me. Did you have a personal interest in the case (i.e one of them was your friend), or are you really that unhappy that the moderators thought it was unfair to penalise one boat over another?

Sinogin's Comment Unresolved

Sinogin,

Thanks for your concern.

Just so everyone is clear - the moderators reserve the right to come to an 'unresolved' result.

This will happen when:

a) There is disagreement on the application of the rules
b) There is insufficient evidence (or corrupt evidence)
c) Where moderators do not agree on a judgement of the facts.

We reserve this right in the knowledge that we are not accountable for our decisions to any higher authority. We reserve this right in acceptance that we are not perfect, nor paid or acting in any professional capacity for Sailx, ISAF or any paying member.

Actually, 'Unresolved' does't happen often, but when it does, it is in preference with possibily incorrectly ruling.

--------------------------------------------------------
In this Germo vs Iceman, there the rules are very clear. Rule 16 vs Rule 11.

The judgement is grey, and mods have disagreed. (See c above).

The lack of defence by Germo is probably a function of 2nd language issues, as well as the lack of clear defense of Iceman. (If it isn't clear from A's defence whether person A did the crime or didn't do it, then the same must go for person B, without need to look into person B's defence!!!! Logic!)

Sinogin, I really wouldn't be alarmed by the 'Unresolved' result.

Cheers,

DW

SINOGIN wrote:
.Iceman vs germo

Myself and Okole take the time to lay out the facts of this protest, and Moreno kindly takes the time to translate for the not so bilingual, which i am tahnkful for. But for what reason, when Enterprise and Shua vote that it should be unresolved yet they give no explanation?



Thanks,
SIN

I understand the fact's favoring Iceman in this case. Could you please tell me what facts favored Germo in this case, that persuaded you to close the protest and declare it unsolvable?

Dog watch, thank you for your explanation. it was very helpful. I received your respons after writting this.

1. Moderators decisions were split
2. It was a judgement call as to who was right/wrong
3. The protest was unresolved, not unsolvable

Enterprise wrote:
.1. Moderators decisions were split
2. It was a judgement call as to who was right/wrong
3. The protest was unresolved, not unsolvable

sorry for my dislexia (however you spell it). were there any facts found in the replay that might have supported your decision?

SINOGIN wrote:
All I see are moderators saying they could go either way and that they vote for unresolved. That's what i have a problem with.

This is rushed and selective (haven't read the whole thread properly), but you have answered your question there.

It was a judgement call, the mods said that it could be ruled against either party -> undecided/unresolved.

eh i dunno

I have been away and if I were to have commented on that protest, I would definitely have ruled in Iceman's favour.

All Iceman has to do is give the room for Germo to keep clear whilst sailing in a seamanlike manner.
(See the definition of 'room')

It just so happened that the only seamanlike option here was to luff slightly, as opposed to a BIG bear away into a quick gybe. Germo failed to do this, which proves that he didn't act in a seamanlike way. But that doesn't mean that Iceman didn't give Germo ROOM. The room was there, Germo didn't take it - (it was astern of Iceman).

Dunno wrote:
.SINOGIN wrote:
All I see are moderators saying they could go either way and that they vote for unresolved. That's what i have a problem with.

This is rushed and selective (haven't read the whole thread properly), but you have answered your question there.

It was a judgement call, the mods said that it could be ruled against either party -> undecided/unresolved.

eh i dunno

I felt the decision was rushed. It seemed like one moderator claimed they could go either way. then the next moederator suggested unresolved, and then the following moderators were just going with what the other moderators were saying.

Maybe part of the issue was that there were too many moderators chyming in on one protest. is there a limit as to how many? if not maybe there should.

Isn't this a bit pointless? When a moderator reviews the protest, they usually have a good idea of who is in the right, and who is in the wrong. Sometimes we get a protest where we need to watch the replay several times, and it's a judgement call as to who is in the right.

If one Moderator made the decision, he would need to go with his judgement, which may not agree with some of the other moderators, or some of the other users. Sure, you'd get a result, but it's only that Moderators opinion, and may not be the result that you want, or agree with.

If several moderators comment on the protest, you get a variety of opinions, and when we read through the protest and the comments made by other Mods and users, we usually build a better idea of the rules involved and the interpretations of other people. If several Mods advise that it should go "unresolved", then there is usually a good reason for it. While you may feel that one party should be penalised over another, other people will feel the opposite. I suppose the questions that need to be asked here, are: What makes you so confident that you are correct? Is this confidence misplaced when many of the Mods disagree with you? Is there bias involved (i.e. are you friends with one of the parties involved, or do you dislike one of the parties)? Why isn't there doubt in your mind, when there is doubt in many Moderators minds?

Ok, everyone's points have been taken on board.

I think it is pointless to discuss the 'actual' ruling now, it was a judgement call, simple. (But trim-on: It is NOT clear that there was time and room to luff above)

*Calling DW for a massive but inspiring post*

Eh, here is my crappy rushed attempt

Sinogin: There are ALOT of protests in the protest room, this protest actually got alot of attention. This is also why the problem developed, with only one mod there is no 'mutual' agreement. A few mods got involved to give more opinions, but they couldn't agree (and still cant)

eh i dunno

I count six moderators. thats a little more than a few. have any of you ever been in a protest from an actual event with six judges? I think the most that i've dealt with is four, and these were'nt mom and pop events either.

Right. Our deepest apologies for putting our free time and effort into the protest. How awful of us. Guys, we should be ashamed.........

Honestly, this is just silly now.

Frodo, are you trying to imply that i am being rude? thats not what I am trying to do here. Sorry if you feel that way.

No one has to reply to this thread if they don't want to. But if they do, it would be nice if my questions were answered, and not have everything I say be over analyzed.

I am not attempting to imply that you are being rude. Your questions have been answered, so I don't know why this thread is still active.



I count six moderators. thats a little more than a few. have any of you ever been in a protest from an actual event with six judges? I think the most that i've dealt with is four, and these were'nt mom and pop events either.

Well aren't the parties involved so lucky that they got 6 moderators involved in trying to resolve their protest.



Look, hows about we leave it at this:

Some protests are simple. These will usually be commented on by one mod. However, often more mods will chip in agreeing.
Some protests are complicated, or are judgement calls. In these instances, more than one mods opinion and ruling is preferred, so we get it right as much as we possibly can.

The protest in question was a judgement call. The mods that were involved in the protest had not come to a clear decision, so the protest was ruled unresolved.

In a real protest, we do not have the RE to dole out a pen, which can often be wrong. So in cases where we just cannot agree, we must close as unresolved.


The End.

I can understand that.

*Calling DW for a massive but inspiring post*


Sailx SI - 4. Moderators are utilised to oversee the smooth running of Sailx. Their judgement will be trusted when reasonably based on the premise of fairness. Additionally, any decision they do make may not be used against any subsequent or later decisions. Moderators reserve the right not to give time to any Sailx issue, including valid protests or general discussions. Moderators also reserve the right to view any replay, and protest a boat on the evidence of that replay, regardless of the existence of any valid Rule 60 protest against that boat or not.

Unresolved When an agreement cannot be reached amongst Moderators or when a moderator feels there is not enough evidence to resolve


ISAF Judges Handbook - 9.19 Resolving Controversial Issues

When all but one member is in general agreement, the dissenter should be given an
opportunity to state his point of view, and try to persuade the other members. Only
after having been given ample opportunity to persuade the others, should his opinion
be overruled.

<...>

The chairman has a casting vote (that is, when there is an even number of votes
either way including the chairman's vote, then the chairman has an extra vote). When
a casting vote is required to decide a case, it is usually worth spending some more
time discussing the case.

9.20 Protest Committee Member with Strongly Held Minority Opinion

Usually, after thorough discussion, a member of the protest committee who does not
agree with the majority is happy to be overruled by the majority. Occasionally a
minority opinion on an important issue is held so strongly that the judge wishes not
to be associated with the decision. In such a case, he has the right to insist that it be made clear that the protest committee was not unanimous.

If the dissenter feels
strongly enough he may ask to be named as the dissenter. In such unusual
circumstances, the chairman must include details of the case in his regatta report, and
when the dissenter is an International Judge, he must include details of the case in his
own regatta report.

Sinogin, your points are noted, with thanks for your time.

As you are not a party to the decision, there can be no reopening solely based on your disagreement of procedure - unless the protest committee believes there is significant new evidence, or believes it has made a mistake. It has not - this is a judgement call.

Thread....RESOLVED!

How's that?!

DW