I break the overlap intentinally as seen in the replay. Our names aren\'t highlighted in yellow anymore.
Then i sailed to my PC
Opti sailed above PC and collided me, after gaining the overlap from astern.


bh.

Boathole I spun.

just liked you to know what actually happened. As you hailed "PROTEST Boathole"


bh.

It was a nice overlap break but this really this is a pointless protest. As soon as you said "I broke overlap" I realised and spun. This is a waste of time.


OP

How is OP off his PC?

I would venture to say that this is not clear-cut Rule 17:

If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped
within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails
astern of the other boat.

I think it is not unreasonable for OP in this situation to assume that overlap was re-established outside of 2-BL's... and therefore Boathole should not be exonnerated by Rule 17, for her breach of Rule 11.

mmmmm how can we know exactly 2BL whilst sailing?

Also because a boat breaks Rule 17 does not mean a boat can than break rule 11. You must still keep clear and than protest.

I know in the sailx SI's this is addressed to allow the windward boat to be exonerated but the way i read it that only applies to Fleet Racing


Except in Team Racing or Match racing, when a boat breaks
Rule 17 and the windward boat is sailing on or higher than
the leeward boat's proper course, OR when a boat subject to
Rule 17 sails significantly past a proper course layline with no
apparent tactical advantage appropriate to the race, the
windward boat shall be exonerated for breaking Rule 11.

So unless I'm reading this totally backwards...

The 17 is close but hard to tell but to give the benefit of the doubt that the boats weren't two boat-lengths apart. I would say this should be a double pen. 17 on OP and 11 on Boathole. Also could be a little discussion if OP penalty was done in time but I feel it was.

Any chance we could get a ruling here. Thanks,

OP

Final overlap created at 84.1 and within 2 boatlengths (almost within 1) going by TRCB F1 definition of closest points - see farm5.static.flickr.com/4122/4923384970_fc3619b19f_o.jpg

As 17 was on, and BH was being pinned above PC (never found any reason to sail above green line in windy conditions, or above 135 in general, and obviously away from greater pressure/into less pressure is slower), OP breaks 17, spins.

As to the ammended SX SI's, I have no idea what they mean - it seems as if they are unaltered for all team and match racing (DW would need to clarify), and hence R11 still applies in full and Boathole should be penalised for R11.

(I have suggested a few times that SI's be split for TR/MR/FR for clarity. This is a clear example where separate SI's for TR would make it simple and clear as to what was required of the windward boat here.)

Nicely done, BigNeil. I didn't know how the 2 boat lengths were measured. Thankyou for posting that. +1 Karma

OP

Hi,
I forgot this was still open!!!
btw nice picture BN (again), wonder how you do them
Also I thought two boatlengths where measured the other way round. Good to know.


bh.

SO, whats the final ruling here?¿
discussion is DEAD!



bh.

Sailing_Rugger is handling this protest. Maybe send him a PM to ask him to close it.

Aloha!

It seems a bit heavy handed to apply R44.2 here. I wouldn't want that tight a standard applied to me. I could go with a more stringent interpretation if the delay was creating an advantage, but let's give some opportunity for the Sailx communication process. In on-the-water sailing words would fly fast enough for all to understand the situation to enable a prompt spin. On SailX it takes longer in course length due to the compressed time scale.
-PEB

You live and learn, I guess.

OP

PEB wrote:
.It seems a bit heavy handed to apply R44.2 here. I wouldn't want that tight a standard applied to me. I could go with a more stringent interpretation if the delay was creating an advantage, but let's give some opportunity for the Sailx communication process. In on-the-water sailing words would fly fast enough for all to understand the situation to enable a prompt spin. On SailX it takes longer in course length due to the compressed time scale.
-PEB
I do agree with what you say generally PEB. By the rule does say 'as soon as possible', and does not mention discussion.

Maybe we should be more lenient, here especially as the overlap was not clearly broken.

I have edited my ruling and S_R can close as he is handling this one.

Aloha!

Are you sure overlap was not clearly broken?

Boathole

Let me repeat: "the overlap was not clearly broken".

There has been a huge discussion with an expert BigNeil making diagrams to help us decide exactly what happened, even though we have a video replay to show us exactly what occurred.

In the real world there would be no way to accurately judge if the overlap had been broken or not.

So (read carefully here Boathole) when OP delays his penalty turn to discuss the incident to be sure he broke a rule before spinning, we should be lenient with applying R44.2 to him because IT WAS NOT 100% CLEAR THAT THE OVERLAP WAS BROKEN to OP, so he wanted to be sure he had broken a rule before spinning. All clear?

Boathole, please be sure to read what is written very carefully so you understand what is written before you comment. Thanks!

Aloha!

So the overlap was not clearly broken at the moment? Remember this is team race. OP must realize that. My luff to break the overlap was more than clear. Also, our boats weren't higlighted in yellow anymore. Wierd


anyway, rule as ya suggest too