SR protests and spins, but UG is \'absolutely\' sure that he has not broken Rule 10 or Rule 18

System Info:Sailing_Rugger was given a pen at t=135 (RE:Rule 11 - Overlapped, windward boat).    Sailing_Rugger raised the P flag at=137.  Sailing_Rugger span at t=153.    


pen: protester
spin: protester

I'm still absolutely certain. The contact was made when Rugger gybed his boom over to port tack - No R10 violation. Additionally, I did allow mark room for Rugger - No R18 violation.

This protest is a bit strange coming from a good sailor like Rugger (especially the sarcastic use of the emoticon). The video is pretty obvious.

i tend to agree with UG.
He supplied enough room, and contacted was made when SR changed tack.
Lucky that SR spun although 18 seconds delay is borderline.

Really? How can you guys BOTH say that UG provided S_R room to sail to his mark, when.. in fact.. when S_R attempted to do so, collision occurred?

because UG is right on the edge of the 3BL circle, heading away from the mark!

So if I had held off from gybing for one split second more, UG would have broken Rule 10... instead, because there was physically no way for me to alter course TO my mark without gybing, I do so... thus taking my room provided by Rule 18... and somehow I break Rule 11?

I guess my questions to unwantedguest are.

1) Who is right of way boat before you enter the zone?

2) Are the boats overlapped when the first boat enters the zone?

3) which boat is entitled to mark-room?

Rugger asks: "So if I had held off from gybing for one split second more, UG would have broken Rule 10... instead, because there was physically no way for me to alter course TO my mark without gybing, I do so... thus taking my room provided by Rule 18... and somehow I break Rule 11?"

UG responds: I am not obligated to anticipate any movement or sail adjustment from you. I am only obligated to respond to it.

grits430 wrote:
.I guess my questions to unwantedguest are.

1) Who is right of way boat before you enter the zone? Rugger does - and I kept clear.

2) Are the boats overlapped when the first boat enters the zone? Yes - and I kept clear.

3) which boat is entitled to mark-room? Rugger - and I kept clear

See my previous post for the extent of my obligations.

double post..hit submit before i wanted to and then for some reason it made a new post when i edited it.. see below

Ok Rugger is entitled to mark-room. Is S_R proper course to jibe in order to round the mark?

Since 18.4 does not apply because it's a gate mark, I believe it is and such S_R can't break a rule of section A(10,11,12, 13) or 16.1 or 15 under rule 18.5(b), thus unwantedguest needed to provide the room for S_R to complete the jibe.


18.4 Gybing
When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to
sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from
the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at
a gate mark.

18.5 Exoneration
When a boat is taking mark-room to which she is entitled, she shall
be exonerated
(a) if, as a result of the other boat failing to give her mark-room,
she breaks a rule of Section A, or
(b) if, by rounding the mark on her proper course, she breaks a
rule of Section A or rule 15 or 16.

Imo unwantedd broke rule 10 because had room for keep clear and second broke rule 2 because write you are crazy.

regardes warrior of sailing

UnwantedGuest wrote:
.Rugger asks: "So if I had held off from gybing for one split second more, UG would have broken Rule 10... instead, because there was physically no way for me to alter course TO my mark without gybing, I do so... thus taking my room provided by Rule 18... and somehow I break Rule 11?"

UG responds: I am not obligated to anticipate any movement or sail adjustment from you. I am only obligated to respond to it.

You are also obligated to KEEP CLEAR when you are on port to my starboard... which you obviously are not doing due to the collision.

But am I obligated to anticipate the exact moment you decide to gybe (as we sail a course not even close to the mark)?

In this situation you need to be keeping clear of the starboard tack boat while providing enough room for the boat to jibe to sail to the mark.

grits430 wrote:
.In this situation you need to be keeping clear of the starboard tack boat while providing enough room for the boat to jibe to sail to the mark.

I understand the concept of keeping clear of a starboard tack boat, Grits, and felt like I was. I was keeping clear and kept waiting for SR to actually sail to the mark. If it weren't for the loophole in R18.4 about not being applicable at a gate mark, I could easily say that he took waayyyy too much room. I think SR was more intent on driving me away from the mark than actually sailing toward it.

Preliminary period ends, no aggreement. Protest enters the Protest Room standard procedure.

Protest_System wrote:
.Preliminary period ends, no aggreement.


LOL, got that one right!

(though shouldn't it be spelt "agreement"? )

Can we have some PC commentary please?

Now this is an interesting one:
This is my view on it.
UG is on port and SR on port.
131.7 SR gybes to starboard and gave room to UG to avoid
132.1 UG doesn't change course, therefor SR has to luff up to avoid collision. UG breaks rule 10.
134.3 UG enters the 3BL and has obligation to give SR room at the mark. He on port.
134.3 SR enters the 3BL and has right to room at the mark. He on starboard.
SR PC is to gybe and round the mark therefore is protected for break rule 11 by rule 18.5.
UG breaks rule 18.2 (a) and rule 10

Simple definitions call IMO:

18.2(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of
the boat required to give mark-room.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring
promptly in a seamanlike way.

UG owes SR room to sail to the mark, and for SR the space a boat needs includes room to gybe. UG should have anticipated SR's mark room requirements before entering, and breaks 18.2(a), but it is easy to see why he would be flummoxed by SR's actions.

What is so flummoxing about Rule 10? (and later Rule 18.2a)

The ruling I think will be 18.2 a and 10 like I said in the post above

bigNeil wrote:
.Simple definitions call IMO:

18.2(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of
the boat required to give mark-room.

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring
promptly in a seamanlike way.

UG owes SR room to sail to the mark, and for SR the space a boat needs includes room to gybe. UG should have anticipated SR's mark room requirements before entering, and breaks 18.2(a), but it is easy to see why he would be flummoxed by SR's actions.

Nice summary BN, couldn't agree more. Thanks!

UG must allow enough Room for S_R to gybe to sail to the mark because UG must already be giving S_R Mark-Room when the 1st boat reaches the zone. S_R's moves are flummoxing indeed! Clever, skilful and possibly a sailx anomaly, and definitely flummoxing. Love that word!

Decision:
UnwantedGuest breaks R18.2.b does not exonerate so gets a DSQ -300

Aloha!

I'm fine with the ruling by the PC. I will see you all on the water!

Remember: The rules are a shield, not a sword.

Interesting summary, and i too have learned a lot from this protest - thank you all.