Hi
Possibly the RE is right giving me the R15, but I have doubts.

T 165 rems was going up. Lutxo was planing towards the mark. Rems started to bears away.
T166 rems heading converge with Lutxo's

T166,5 overlap. rems started to plan

T166,8 Lutxo beared away to give rems the oportunity to KC

T166,9 What is the meaning of the red-pink dots in rems?

T167,4 Contact

rems in any moment try to KC. I think she broke R11, and possibly R18 if we apply the R18-Rose&Perry version:
www.sailx.com/forum/21-tactics-a-strateg...ing-mark-room#227460



System Info:lutxo was given a pen at t=167 (RE:Rule 15 - Acquiring Right-Of-Way).    lutxo raised the P flag at=172.  lutxo span at t=193.    


pen: protester
spin: protester

Hi lutxo,

I think you could be right only if everything wouldn't have happened so fast.
As you stated in your message, there was less than one second between the overlap and the contact. I think that more than one second reaction time is considered as necessary to start any avoiding action to keep clear.

And I am still not sure if you didn't break here with R17.

I think that you got the R15 because of the short time from overlap to contact.

What do you think?

cheers,
keep sailing fair,
rems

rems wrote:
.Hi lutxo,

I think you could be right only if everything wouldn't have happened so fast.
As you stated in your message, there was less than one second between the overlap and the contact. I think that more than one second reaction time is considered as necessary to start any avoiding action to keep clear.

And I am still not sure if you didn't break here with R17.

I think that you got the R15 because of the short time from overlap to contact.

What do you think?

cheers,
keep sailing fair,
rems

Yes, was fast, but easy to predict. With your "S" from down to up, and then down..
You had 1 second to react, but you saw me many seconds before, that's why I wonder if R18 could apply here.

I was going straight to the mark following my PC, so I can not see R17 here.

Agree, the RE possibly gave me the R15 because the time, but... I would like to know the opinion of more people

Regards

Preliminary period ends, no aggreement. Protest enters the Protest Room standard procedure.

rems breaks R15 R16.1 and compels lutxo to break R15
rems breaks R18.2.b

Please discuss.

Okole wrote:
.rems breaks R15 and compels lutxo to break R15
rems breaks R18.2.b

Please discuss.

Hi Okole

I suppose you wanted to say:

rems breaks R11 and compels lutxo to break R15

Agree, this is my point. I tried to avoid contact, trying not no fail R15, but rems did the contrary not acting as the KC

rems breaks R18.2.b
Agree. R & L overlapped before to enter the zone, L in. R should give room to L to accomplish with R18.2.b and R15

"A quote from Dave Perry's excellent book: Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing through 2012, published by US Sailing:
"But note that when either of the boats enters the zone, rule 18.2(b) (Giving Mark-Room) requires the outside boat to give the inside boat mark-room from that moment on, which is the space the inside boat needs to sail to the mark in a seamanlike way (see definition of Mark-Room). Therefore, in order to comply with 18.2(b), boats will have to anticipate this by sailing a course prior to entering the zone so that they will be in compliance with the rule at the moment the first one reaches the zone. And if, while still outside the zone, an outside right-of-way boat forces an inside boat to a course that does not allow her to sail to the mark in a seamanlike way from the moment either of the reaches the zone, the outside boat breaks rule 18.2(b)."

repeated

Sorry I meant to say:

rems breaks R16.1

Okole wrote:
.Sorry I meant to say:

rems breaks R16.1

No problem

Rems changed course several times before the contact. The last changes make impossible to avoid contact so I think R broke R16.1

Facts:
1) Before any boat enters the zone rems is the ROW boat and changes course by bearing away when he is clear ahead. No contact occurs and lutxo can bear away to avoid cotact so Room was given and rems does not break R16.1
2) lutxo obtains a leeward overlap because of rems' bear away so R15 does not apply to lutxo.
3) rems enters the zone and is outside overlapped with lutxo. R18.2.b turns on instantly rems enters the zone and he must be giving Mark-Room instantly at t=167.2.
t=167.4 contact occurs and rems breaks R18.2.b.

Decision:
rems breaks R18.2.b does not exonerate so gets a DSQ

Aloha!

Ok, understood. But Okole, do I have to give room instantly when entering the zone? No reaction time of 1 sec or so?
Everything went to fast for me!

Sorry lutxo, I will do it better next time. Thanks for protesting, I learned again!

I ask for RAF, probably too late?

cheers,
keep sailing fair,
rems

Hola Rems

Si, creo que es tarde para RAF.

Si revisas la referencia que he puesto a la interpretación de DAve Perry verás que la R18 hay que preveerla, prepararla antes de entrar en la zona. Para mi tambien es raro, no es lo que está escrito literalmente en la regla pero esa interpretación es la que se aplica en sailx. Hay un tema en el foro que habla de ello.

Yo tambien he aprendido

Nos vemos en el mar virtual

rems wrote:
.Ok, understood. But Okole, do I have to give room instantly when entering the zone? No reaction time of 1 sec or so?
Everything went to fast for me!

Sorry lutxo, I will do it better next time. Thanks for protesting, I learned again!

I ask for RAF, probably too late?

cheers,
keep sailing fair,
rems
Hi rems,

Yes it can happen all too fast!
Yes you are not allowed any reaction time.
Yes you must be giving Mark-Room at the instant R18.2.b turns on.

So you need to sail a course that you will be 'giving' Mark-Room the instant boats enter the zone. Here you needed to luff just before or as you entered the zone so that as soon as R18.2.b turned on you were already giving Mark-Room to lutxo.



Team Race Call Book Calls TRCB A6 and J1 both say that the boat that needs to give Mark-Room must do so only at the instant the 1st overlapped boat reaches the zone.

BUT

A quote from Dave Perry's excellent book: Understanding the Racing Rules of Sailing through 2012, published by US Sailing:
"But note that when either of the boats enters the zone, rule 18.2(b) (Giving Mark-Room) requires the outside boat to give the inside boat mark-room from that moment on, which is the space the inside boat needs to sail to the mark in a seamanlike way (see definition of Mark-Room). Therefore, in order to comply with 18.2(b), boats will have to anticipate this by sailing a course prior to entering the zone so that they will be in compliance with the rule at the moment the first one reaches the zone. And if, while still outside the zone, an outside right-of-way boat forces an inside boat to a course that does not allow her to sail to the mark in a seamanlike way from the moment either of the reaches the zone, the outside boat breaks rule 18.2(b)."

and

Dick Rose (ISAF Racing Rules Committee, Racing Rules Committee Working Party, chairman of the ISAF Case Book Working Party, US SAILING's Racing Rules Committee and advisor to the US Olympic Team from 1984-1992.) with a quote from his regular column in Sailing World:
"Under new Rule 18.2(b) an outside overlapped right-of-way boat must anticipate his obligation to give mark-room. When the first of the overlapped boats reaches the zone, the outside boat must have already acted in his anticipation of his obligation and at that moment already giving mark-room to each boat overlapped inside him."

The 2 quotes above (by the rules gurus who write the rules we sail by) say that the boat that owes Mark-Room must anticipate already giving that Room from the instant the boat with rights to Mark-Room acquires those rights, not sooner and not later. The boat owing Mark-Room must give enough room for the inside boat/s to be able to sail "to" the mark and their PC while 'at' (or rounding) the mark.

Aloha!

Ok, got it. Thanks Okole and lutxo.

Is this the only exception to no reaction time and/or instatnly giving mark room or are there any others?

Thanks again,
rems

Happy to be helpful!
Yes this is specifically to do with R18.2 and Mark-Room.
I don't think there are any other rules that require anticipation.

Aloha!

Ok, thanks again Okole!

cheers,
rems