At 199.4 Joe.B enter zone with an inside overlap with 2dogs.

2dogs fails to give room.

System Info:Joe.B was given a pen at t=202 (RE:Rule 18 - Mark room).    Joe.B raised the P flag at=206.  


pen: protester
spin: none

I maintain there was sufficient room between 2Dogs and the mark. Joe.B took the mark rounding wider than necessary rather than taking advantage of the room provided. I believe poor helsmanship by Joe.B was the reason for the collision.

Question for 2dogs:

Was Joe.B sailing his proper course as defined by the RRS while at the mark and when contact occurred?

Joe.B had "Room for his boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark" without causing a collision IMO.

Remember that Room is:

Room - The space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.

and his Proper Course is his course without you being there;

Proper Course - A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in
the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat
has no proper course before her starting signal.

Aloha!

Joe.B had space to manoeuvre promptly in a seamanlike way and maintain a propper course toward finishing the race and avoid a collision with my boat. He didn't steer his boat in a seamanlike manner to take advantage of the room given to maintain his propper course.
I'm not obliged to remove my boat from the race in this situation to allow him to sail wherever he wants to sail. He also has an obligation to give me room to sail my boat on a propper course to the finish which he had room to do, but failed to do.

Preliminary period ends, no aggreement. Protest enters the Protest Room standard procedure.

2dogs wrote:
.Joe.B had space to manoeuvre promptly in a seamanlike way and maintain a propper course toward finishing the race and avoid a collision with my boat. He didn't steer his boat in a seamanlike manner to take advantage of the room given to maintain his propper course.
Yes he broke rule 11 in the contact, but R18.5.b exonerates him, because he was sailing his PC.
18.5 Exoneration
When a boat is taking mark-room to which she is entitled, she shall
be exonerated
(a) if, as a result of the other boat failing to give her mark-room,
she breaks a rule of Section A, or
(b) if, by rounding the mark on her proper course, she breaks a
rule of Section A or rule 15 or 16.

I'm not obliged to remove my boat from the race in this situation to allow him to sail wherever he wants to sail. No you are correct, but you do owe him Mark Room, and do not give him enough space to sail his PC.

He also has an obligation to give me room to sail my boat on a propper course to the finish which he had room to do, but failed to do. No, not at all. Your PC is irrelevant. It does not figure here in any way whatsoever.

2dogs,

While at least one boat is in the zone, one boat passes HTW or Joe has passed the mark and no longer requires mark room, you owe Joe.B mark room. Mark room is the space Joe needs to sail to the mark and room to sail his Proper course while at the mark. Joe's PC is the course he would sail to finish fastest. You do not figure in Joe's PC at all, you are irrelevant in regard to Joe's PC because his PC is judged in your absence, without you being there. (pls see RRS definition).

2dogs, you are ROW boat and Joe must keep clear of you, but within the zone you owe Joe room to sail his PC while at the mark. Joe sailed within one boat length of the mark and did not delay any course changes to round in a seamanlike (safe) way. His PC could be even further away from the mark, because hitting the mark is not the fastest way to finish. You owe him room to sail HIS proper course.


Rules:
11
18.2
18.5
Mark-Room
Proper Course


Facts:
1) Contact occurs while boats are at the mark. Rule 18.2.b applies and 2dogs owes mark room.
2) Joe.B breaks R11 on contact because he is keep clear windward boat as per R11.
3) R18.5.b exonerates Joe.B because he was sailing his PC when he broke R11.


Decision:
Joe.B breaks R11 but is exonerated by R18.5.b
2dogs breaks R18.2.b does not spin so gets a DSQ and -300 points.

Aloha!

"Joe.B did not delay any course changes to round in a seamanlike (safe) way."

I dispute that. If you watch the incident it's obvious Joe.B fails to continue his turn just prior to the collision.

What I would like to be made clear is; how much room is enough or is the inside boat allowed to round any distance from the mark. i.e., if there's a collision within the two boat lengths circle, [which incidently is more like ten boat lengths on SailX], is the outside boat automatically at fault?

Berny

Hi Berny,

The zone is 3 boat lengths in sailx, just as it is in the real world these days.

Joe.B was sailing his PC so gets exonerated by R18.5.b for his breach of R11.

You owe mark room while at least one boat is in the zone or the boat owed mark room requires it. It does not matter if Joe.b does not make a perfect rounding, as long as he is sailing his PC he gets exonerated by R18.5.b for breaking R11.

You on the other hand MUST give him room to sail his PC.

That's how much room is enough. It cannot be a set length or distance from the mark because of all the different variables such as; boat type, wind & sea conditions, angle of approach to the mark, other boats, etc, etc.

The rules seem to favour the inside boat when she is at the mark so the outside boat usually better play it safe and give room.

I hope that helps.

Aloha!

My comments:

- red circles marking the zone are 3BL (maybe a bit more because calculations are made with integers, but never 4Bl or 10BL!).

- Joe.B, to get the benefit of mark-room is clearly restricted to: 1) sail to the mark and 2) round using PC while at the mark.

Joe.B is not allowed (to get room-mark benefits) to make a tactical rounding.
Joe.B is not allowed to make an error, he is required to sail seaman-like
But Joe.B is not required to round as a champion. He has to his best but only using the 'average' sailor standards.

Of course 2dogs sails in a way that there is enough room for Joe.B to round the mark but, after replaying several times the racelet I think only the best sailors, with the best connection, would be able to round there.

It is a matter of opinion but I concur with Okole: asking Joe.B to round there with that room was asking a bit too much.

A.

"But Joe.B is not required to round as a champion. He has to his best but only using the 'average' sailor standards."
"I think only the best sailors, with the best connection, would be able to round there"

Ok, I accept that I could have given more room, but I too are 'only using 'average' sailor standards' to provide sufficient room and are not sailing "with the best connection", to provide sufficient room so he will "be able to round there".

It matters little really as I don't think I have 300 points so I'll have to 'pay them off' over time. Could take a while.........................

2dogs wrote:

Ok, I accept that I could have given more room, but I too are 'only using 'average' sailor standards' to provide sufficient room and are not sailing "with the best connection", to provide sufficient room so he will "be able to round there".

True.
But, unfortunatedly, that's not enough. The onus is on you. You are not forced to a tight rounding while Joe.B is being forced into a too tight staight.

A.