If I enter the 3-boat zone on port before another boat (also port) enters, but as they enter they tack and now are on starboard. They bear off to round the mark. Do I have to duck or do I have any rights here?

I'm trying to understand what the purpose of the windward mark zone is. I am assuming I am in the wrong here, as they completed their tack and I wasn't able to clear them.

I don't know how to make a racelet (or view games? how do I do this?) other than the prefiled protests - hope this link works.

racelethttp://www.sailx.com/index.php?option=com_jumi&fileid=14&Itemid=68&type_protest=watch&usox=Generate2&source=1339483618839-0&from=85&to=120&track=walke723&htext=jsn7821+raised+the+P+flag+at=110.

In this incident does the boat tacking onto starboard give you time to avoid?

Racelet doesn't work.

How to make a new racelet for posting into a Protest thread:
1) In the blue box top right of your screen click on Regatta Classif.
2) Find the race and click Editor_1 for that race.
3) Fill out all the boxes on the racelet form.
4) Create the new racelet by clicking the 'Generate' button.
5) Check the racelet. If you need to make any changes, edit the info and click 'Generate' again.
6) If things do not change, click 'Reset' and then 'Generate' and the changes should occur.
7) Now look for the the 'racelet number' found above the racelet - Select and Copy that whole number including the code and brackets, and paste it into a new post/reply in the Protest thread.
8) Submit the reply and the racelet should appear in the Protest thread.

Jsn you put the text "racelet" at the start of the web link, so the link was broken. Here's the proper link to the racelet:

www.sailx.com/index.php?option=com_jumi&...d+the+P+flag+at=110.

18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a
mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However,
it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19
applies.

Jsn Rule 18 is the rule that gives boats "mark-room". As you can see in part (a) and (b) of Rule 18.1 mark room does not apply between boats on opposite tacks at a windward mark. Also, because your proper course was to tack and walke's proper course was not, mark room does not apply.

However a boat cannot simply tack into you. If a boat tacks into you and does not give you room to avoid once they have starboard rights then they break Rule 15.

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other
boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of
the other boat’s actions.

In this situation though, you could have easily bore off to dip walke's stern so you break Rule 10 (port, starboard) for not keeping clear.

If you enter the zone overlapped inside another boat you are entitled to mark room from that boat as long as you remain on the same tack.

Walke does give jsn room to avoid when he tacks. jsn could duck or tack. So Walke does not break R15.

Once Walke has tacked he is fetching the mark even though he is in the zone.

In this instance R18.3 applies. Walke is fetching the mark and jsn is tacking in the zone.

18.3 Tacking when Approaching a Mark

If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks and one of them changes tack, and as a result is subject to rule 13 in the zone when the other is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply. The boat that changed tack

(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to avoid her or prevent the other boat from passing the mark on the required side, and

(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped inside her


jsn must not cause Walke to go above close hauled (CH) to avoid BUT, Walke must avoid or he breaks R11. In this case Walke does not go up to CH. If he did he would have avoided, so jsn does not cause Walke to go above CH. Walke breaks R11.

jsn must not cause Walke to go above close hauled (CH) to avoid BUT, Walke must avoid or he breaks R11. In this case Walke does not go up to CH. If he did he would have avoided, so jsn does not cause Walke to go above CH. Walke breaks R11.

The collision occurs while jsn is still tacking. Maybe my racelet is a bit laggy but that's what I'm seeing. Sorry if I'm wrong.

markh

Does really rule 18.3 apply here? JSN is clearly taking in the zone, but i would say WALK also (tak finished within the zone as well). "If two boats were approaching a mark on opposite tacks" of 18.3 means that BEFORE entering the zone one must tak and the other one MUST NOT. So does rule 13 only apply and not rule 18.3?

Do i see it wrong?
Thanks

Greg

I think R18.3 applies when Walke reaches CH on starboard. He is then fetching the mark.

Case 15 is interesting here as well

game.finckh.net/reg_gbr/cases/case15.htm

markh wrote:
.jsn must not cause Walke to go above close hauled (CH) to avoid BUT, Walke must avoid or he breaks R11. In this case Walke does not go up to CH. If he did he would have avoided, so jsn does not cause Walke to go above CH. Walke breaks R11.

The collision occurs while jsn is still tacking. Maybe my racelet is a bit laggy but that's what I'm seeing. Sorry if I'm wrong.

markh

Just found this post while surfing on a friend's slow computer I have vowed not to play on again since I can barely control my boat.

Using the HTML full race re-player I enter the zone while tacking to starboard at t=87.6, completing my tack at t=88.6. At this point I'm about 3 boat-lenghts from jsn so it's very clear I'm not tacking too close and he has room to avoid.

What is interesting is that I come out of the tack inside the zone but over-standing a bit; however I immediately bear down to just above the mark. Had I stayed close hauled jsn probably would have room to tack underneath. However I was still almost two boat lengths from jsn when I altered course so he can still avoid (but not round the mark ahead of me without fouling).

Had jsn completed his tack cleanly to leeward of me I must now come up to a CHC to avoid (but not above a CHC as would be true on open water IIRC). In other words I can't continue on a "proper course" just because he tacked in the zone.

As far as I can tell when you come into the windward mark on port you essentially have about the same rights you would on open water except if overlapped with another port tacker you can ask for mark room (if he is fetching and you are windward/inside and overlapped). You never get mark room relative to starboard tackers (where you would downwind).

I'll check out case 15 now.

Regards,

~ walke

turbolaser wrote:
.I think R18.3 applies when Walke reaches CH on starboard. He is then fetching the mark.

Case 15 is interesting here as well

game.finckh.net/reg_gbr/cases/case15.htm

Neat link to the quiz, thanks.

Let's remove the complication that I too was on port tack and entered the zone while tacking to starboard. In other words let's assume I (walke) had been on starboard tack well before entering the zone.

If over-standing the starboard tacker walke doesn't have to stay on a CHC leaving room for port tackers to tack inside. Walke can bear down leaving a minimal gap between him and the mark. But if for some reason walke did leave a gap he can't sharply bear down to close it at the last second since he would be violating rule 16.1.

Now if jsn completes his tack to leeward (he didnt' but assume he did) then walke must keep clear. But he doesn't have to sail above a CHC per 18.3 (a). In open water (ie. not near the windward mark) a boat can tack underneath and pinch above a CHC if he wants to.

Note that 18.3 (b) applies in the case when a port tacker just crosses in front of the starboard tacker, tacks, then allows the dipping starboard tacker to get an overlap inside to leeward at any time. Here the inside leeward boat gets room even though the overlap was acquired inside the zone.

I'm not sure the complication (that I approached the mark about four boat lengths below the port layline, completing my tack just after I entered the zone) matters.

Hope we get some input on this one.

~ walke

When Walke tacks in the zone he must comply with R13 & R15 as per Case 15.
At the moment Walke reaches CH on starboard he is fetching the mark. it doesn't matter if he is in the zone or outside it.

When jsn tacks in the zone, he must comply with R13 from HTW to CH starboard.
At the moment jsn reaches CH starboard, Walke must avoid. This could be under R11 or R12. If Walke has to go above CH to avoid, jsn breaks R18.3.

If Walke obtains an inside overlap, jsn owes him mark room as defined and must allow Walke to pass the mark on the correct side. if he doesn't jsn breaks R18.3.

As a matter of interest the fetching boat could be 100 miles away, there is no distance requirement. This means if a boat tacks onto starboard in the zone and gets stuck for half an hour, every fetching starboard tack boat turns on R18.3. Of course this has litte effect because the incident will be near the mark.

Nice summary TL.

So a technical question for you!!!!

The boat who was fetching from 100 miles away has plenty of time to ease her sheets and slow her boat down, as she catches up to the boat who tacked.

She doesn't do that. Instead she sails straight to the stern of the boat who tacked.

She arrives at the boat who tacked and is left only with luffing above close-hauled or passing the mark on the wrong side.

Has the boat who tacked broken 18.3(a)?

(Hehe!)

DW

Interesting question DW. The boat who tacked has broken 18.3(a) if the fetching boat has been sailing CH.

If she sailed below CH and then had to sail above to pass, she would not have been caused to sail above CH by the tacking boat. If she had been sailing CH, she would have been.

turbolaser wrote:
.Interesting question DW. The boat who tacked has broken 18.3(a) if the fetching boat has been sailing CH.

If she sailed below CH and then had to sail above to pass, she would not have been caused to sail above CH by the tacking boat. If she had been sailing CH, she would have been.

The point is whether she should have eased her sails and slowed down?

Asked another way....

The boat who tacked, completes her tack 2.5 boat lengths to windward of the mark, leaving ample gap for the fetching boat to pass on the required side to leeward of her.

The fetching boat 100 miles away sails straight to the stern of the boat who tacked, and then at the last second luffs above close hauled.

Did the boat which tacked break rule 18.3?



In other words, if the fetching boat has multiple options (at least one of which will not activate an 18.3 breach, can she then claim she was 'caused' to take that action.

DW

In other words, if the fetching boat has multiple options (at least one of which will not activate an 18.3 breach, can she then claim she was 'caused' to take that action.

No

My problem with this question is that, nowhere in R18.3 does it say anything about easing of sails or throwing out anchors to avoid the boat that tacked. R18.3 only says that if the Fetching boat has to sail above a CHC in order to avoid the boat that tacked, then the boat that tacked breaks R18.3.a. In effect this says that the Fetching boat can continue on a CHC or below until she must avoid (as per R14).

That begs the question: does the Fetching boat have to sheet out to avoid the boat that tacked? (or throw out her anchor or drop her sails or start her engine and put it into reverse )

Aloha!

What about all of them at once Okole!! That would slow it down!

YoungerGun