Neil, I have edited your comment to hide what you said. There is nothing offensive in it, or anything like that. But I have done it for the reason below:


Boathole, if you want to discuss an incident like this that you have raised the protest flag for, the place to do this is in the protest room only. If any user is unsure about an incident that they protested in the field for, submitting a protest-like thread in another forum should not be done. It should be brought to the protest room, not general forums.

Please file the protest and the discussion and learning can continue from there

Continuing on from what Frodo said...

SailX is a learning site, right? (Or at least it is supposed to be.)

And while some of us may pay cash to play this game, most of the players don't, and if you don't pay, then you have nothing to lose from filing a protest!

Even better, when you do file the protest, especially if it is an interesting one like the one you have here, then you can learn some valuable skills for when sailing in real life! (I know for sure I have... )

So when a user says "file it, shud be an interesting discussion", then by all means go for it because over time you'll gain so much--even if you do lose some of them--because of all the knowledge you've gained.

Hope that clears things up!

McG.

I don't get this argument at all. This is a far more public arena for people to discuss interesting topics, and it won't disappear into the abyss that is the protest room after only a few days.

IMO the 'learning' aspect of this site is being hindered by such a ridiculous policy.

Hufflepuff wrote:
.I don't get this argument at all. This is a far more public arena for people to discuss interesting topics, and it won't disappear into the abyss that is the protest room after only a few days.

IMO the 'learning' aspect of this site is being hindered by such a ridiculous policy.


Exactly

Guys , if no protest flag was raised then I think this discussion would have been welcome here.
However seeing as the P flag was raised, this discussion is now welcome in the protest room !
The whole learning aspect is not the issue here I dont think .

What happens after a race in real life when you lodge a protest??? From my experience as soon as you return from the water to the club house you immediatly enter the protest discussion behind closed doors or in private. That discussion is with the RC and the parties involved.
At that point it is not a friendly discussion , rather a protest hearing.

Fair

Yeah, but 1 boat protested and the other did a 360. I don't see any harm about discussing an incident here to save wasting time. The protest would waste mods time (unless bh adjudged to have infringed), be tucked up where many folk wouldn't see it. Also, there are sometimes incidents where boat boats spin, and the parties still want a discussion for clarification.

I see protests as final recourse for unresolved incidents, and see no probs to general discussions elsewhere. (IMHO.)

Agreed - discussions are great and should be allowed anywhere on the website. They are quintessential to this site - After all this site is about tactics and the rules and the learning of those things.

BUT

If a discuission has been started in say the General Forum, about an incident on the water where the protest flag was raised, then that protest should not be allowed to be submitted to the protest room after the "experts" have given their opinions. That would be unfair to the non English speakers and newbies who may not know how to use or are too shy to use the Forums.

As a fair and common courtesy to all we should say: posted in a Forum = not allowed to be submitted as a protest.

Aloha!

Yes,
I raised the P-Flag and protestee spun so why should i file it then? I think this case may appear sevreal times in team racing and can be used as an example.
On protest room this will get lost whatever the ruling is.
Anyway, i spoke to flow and he is not bothering to file it so, i'm not gonna do either.


Thought it might be helpful





bh.

This is far out of my common sense or logic.

If a protester protests (raise p flag) and the protestee spins, when why is there a need to file the protest. It is absolutely a waste of time. Moreover, being open in a thread like this will be longer available for all users who don't frequent as much the protest forum.

This ''discussion'' going clearly the wrong way, will be solved in the protest room and not longer so available or easy to access in a month or so. IMO a discussion where we already know the resolution is not a protest.

Thanks,
333

Exactly 333 and Boathole. Please discuss here! Go ahead and enjoy discussing here!

Just be aware that IF you wanted to discuss an incident here first and then wish to submit a protest in the protest room later, that would not be fair or acceptable.

Aloha!

Okole wrote:
Just be aware that IF you wanted to discuss an incident here first and then wish to submit a protest in the protest room later, that would not be fair or acceptable.

That was nonsense Okole.
Fisrt of all, flow spun so it has no reason to be filed. Why would I discuss it first here and then file?

think about it

---------------------------------------

Anyway, any thoughts about the real incident? Was it really flow's fault?

Not nonsense at all. Maybe it looses something in the translation...

Where in the following do I refer to your specific protest against Flow?
"If a discuission has been started in say the General Forum, about an incident on the water where the protest flag was raised, then that protest should not be allowed to be submitted to the protest room after the "experts" have given their opinions. That would be unfair to the non English speakers and newbies who may not know how to use or are too shy to use the Forums.

As a fair and common courtesy to all we should say: posted in a Forum = not allowed to be submitted as a protest."


All I am saying is: Just be aware that if ANYONE wanted to submit ANY protest after discussing in the forums, it would not be acceptable. Just pointing that out so that everyone knows what a fair policy should be. No reference to you or this discussion in any way. That's all... Sorry I thought that was clear. my bad for not stating it clearer so that you would understand.

Boathole wrote:
Anyway, any thoughts about the real incident? Was it really flow's fault?

Lol, back at the start.

Is 17 between you and OP? (Have no way of knowing this from the racelet.)

If 17 is not on, what is your PC during the luff? Then, consider if OP breaks 16.1 in respect to you and flow being able to alter course to avoid (he needs to give you both room to avoid, which given 2 transom swings, is quite a lot of room)?

bigNeil wrote:
Is 17 between you and OP? (Have no way of knowing this from the racelet.)

If 17 is not on, what is your PC during the luff? Then, consider if OP breaks 16.1 in respect to you and flow being able to alter course to avoid (he needs to give you both room to avoid, which given 2 transom swings, is quite a lot of room)?


OP is in the right of lifting me for sure, I camed from clear astern.
So, he must give me room to keep clear AND flow too? thats new for me

My question is,
Knowing that I cant lift flow (R17), am I not at fault if its another boat that makes me lift (R17 not on)?

You are not breaking R17 because your PC is to avoid an obstruction, OP, who is luffing you. As soon as you have cleared OP, and assuming you were still overlapped with flow, then you would be expected to go back down to your PC to the mark.

I chucked in the R16.1 one for fun, but pause the video at 102.6s. OP has just luffed, can you avoid OP and flow - if not then flow must luff too, and that takes a lot of space. But not relevant to your main question.

Boathole wrote:
.bigNeil wrote:
Is 17 between you and OP? (Have no way of knowing this from the racelet.)

If 17 is not on, what is your PC during the luff? Then, consider if OP breaks 16.1 in respect to you and flow being able to alter course to avoid (he needs to give you both room to avoid, which given 2 transom swings, is quite a lot of room)?


OP is in the right of lifting me for sure, I camed from clear astern.
So, he must give me room to keep clear AND flow too? thats new for me
The overlap transfers the obligation to keep clear and the requirement to give Room to keep clear, all the way out to the outside or most windward boat.

i.e. There is a stack of 20 boats, all overlapped to windward of each other. If the most leeward boat luffs she must be sure to give enough Room for the most windward boat to keep clear of all the boats to leeward of him.

My question is,
Knowing that I cant lift flow (R17), am I not at fault if its another boat that makes me lift (R17 not on)?
Whether rule 17 is turned on or not does not really matter in this incident. You can and are required to luff Flow no matter if R17 is on or not. You are ROW boat to Flow and he must keep clear of you while you luff to keep clear of OP. As BigNeil says: OP is the ROW boat and an obstruction to you, so your PC is to luff to keep clear of him. Just remember that you must give Flow Room to keep clear of your course change (R16.1).

Boat

The diagram below shows boats overlapped with each other but the most windward is not overlapped with the most leeward. When the most leeward luffs the obligation to keep clear (R11) travels all the way up to the most windward through each boat being overlapped with the next boat. The obligation to give room (R16.1) also travels up to the most windward through each boat being overlapped with the next boat.

So if Green luffs all boats to windward must keep clear but green must also be sure to give enough Room so that yellow can keep clear.

Hope that helps!

Aloha!

yup i agree with that

Glad we got to the discussion eventually

Bob

Ok, good to know so probably rule 16.1 on me.

OP

Thanks for this, finally got it




bh.