Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee
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Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass
(3 viewing) emarckx, Titosxm, (1) Guest
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TOPIC: Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass
#216729
Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/06/15 13:07 (1 Year ago)  
Dude, why?

System Info:Sailing_Rugger raised the P flag at=272.  


pen: none
spin: none
Sailing_Rugger.

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#216743
Re: Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/06/15 15:18 (1 Year ago)  
No mennis intended. Went wide to get a better angle on the next mark. Unfortunately did not work as well as I hoped for. No reason why protestor could not pass behind.
MrZee
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#218300
Re: Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/06/25 08:54 (11 Months, 4 Weeks ago)  
Now I'm confused.
Why is my sailing status restricted?
MrZee
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#218306
Re: Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/06/25 09:07 (11 Months, 4 Weeks ago)  
Hi MrZee,

You have been black flagged until you attend a different rule 2 hearing/protest to explain your actions in that incident. You were sent a PM regarding that other rule 2 hearing and are required to attend

here: www.sailx.com/forum/19-protests/217895-s...sty-sailing-at-start

Aloha!
Okole
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One has not won, if, in the process of winning, one has lost the respect of ones competitors. - Paul Elvstrom.



This post was prepared solely as a service to the Sailx community. Neither Sailx nor any of its volunteers, agents or assigns makes any warranty, expressed or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information herein disclosed, or represents that its use would be of any benefit whatsoever to anybody. Reference herein to any specific past or present posts, protests, precedents or any comments whatsoever does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favouring by Sailx, its moderators or users. The opinions of the author expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of Sailx and shall not be used against the author in any way, means, manner or form, for any purpose whatsoever. © 2009 DogWatch/Okole

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#218745
Re: Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/06/27 20:14 (11 Months, 3 Weeks ago)  
What rule is broken here???
b30
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If its not a cat (or tri) its a dog
Friends don\\\'t let friends sail PHRF
 
#218747
Re: Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/06/27 20:24 (11 Months, 3 Weeks ago)  
I protested under Rule 2. It's in the filing title.
Sailing_Rugger.

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#220580
Re: Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/07/12 09:54 (11 Months, 1 Week ago)  
A 001 Q&A 2011-022
Published: 28 November 2011
This Q&A replaces old Q&A A 001, withdrawn on 18 November 2011.

Situation
In a fleet race, Boat A adopts tactics that clearly interfere with and hinder Boat B's progress in the
race. While using those tactics, boat A does not break any rule, except possibly rule 2.

Question
In which of the following circumstances would Boat A’s tactics be considered unsportsmanlike
and a breach of rule 2?
(a) Boat A’s tactics benefit her series result.
(b) Boat A’s tactics increase her chances of gaining selection for another event.
(c) Boat A’s tactics increase her chances of gaining selection to her national team.
(d) Boat A and Boat C had agreed that they would both adopt tactics that benefited Boat C’s
series result.
(e) Boat A was attempting to worsen Boat B’s race or series score for reasons unconnected
with sport.

Answer
In circumstances (a), (b) and (c), Boat A would be in compliance with recognised principles of
sportsmanship and fair play because there is a sporting reason for her actions.
In circumstance (d), both Boat A and Boat C would clearly break rule 2. In addition, by receiving
help prohibited by rule 41 from Boat A, Boat C would also break rule 41.
In circumstance (e) Boat A would break rule 2 because, with no good sporting reason, her actions
would clearly break recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play.


Question and answer (e) are applicable here.
In a single race, a boat that slows another while loosing position to another boat, is not benefiting from the slowing tactic, so the slowing tactic is not for "reasons of sport" and thus is a breach of R2.

Decision:
MrZee breaks R2 so gets a non-discardable DSQ

Aloha!
Okole
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LINKS: Click to download:
ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2013-2016
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ISAF 2013-2016 Case Book
ISAF 2013-2016 Team Race Call Book
ISAF 2013-2016 Match Race Call Book
ISAF 2013 Q&A service Booklet
The US Sailing Appeals Book for 2009-2012.
The RYAs PRINCIPLES OF SPORTSMANSHIP & FAIR PLAY
Play By The Rules - The RRS in many different languages.
Sailx Quick Reference Guide

One has not won, if, in the process of winning, one has lost the respect of ones competitors. - Paul Elvstrom.



This post was prepared solely as a service to the Sailx community. Neither Sailx nor any of its volunteers, agents or assigns makes any warranty, expressed or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information herein disclosed, or represents that its use would be of any benefit whatsoever to anybody. Reference herein to any specific past or present posts, protests, precedents or any comments whatsoever does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favouring by Sailx, its moderators or users. The opinions of the author expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of Sailx and shall not be used against the author in any way, means, manner or form, for any purpose whatsoever. © 2009 DogWatch/Okole

Dont worry - Be a happy Okole!
 
#220592
Re:Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/07/12 12:32 (11 Months, 1 Week ago)  
Very surprised at outcome as at no stage did I try to interfere with Sailing_Rugger or any other sailor for that matter.
I sailed my race and as I've said, the intention was to get an angle on the next mark. The fact that another boat passed and that Sailing_Rugger was affected was incidental.
Affecting another sailor was never the intention and fair or unfair sailing is also about intent.
So Sad.
MrZee
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#220672
Re:Sailing_Rugger vs. MrZee (Rule 2) L2_1339765194_F-1339765194750 [1] Z sails us both off course to allow boat(s) to pass 2012/07/13 03:43 (11 Months, 1 Week ago)  
CASE 78
Rule 2, Fair Sailing
Rule A2, Series Scores

A boat may position herself in a tactically controlling position
over another boat and then slow that boat’s progress so that
other boats pass both of them, provided that, if she is protested
under rule 2 for doing so, the protest committee finds that that
there was a reasonable chance of her tactic benefiting her
series result. However, she breaks rule 2 if she intentionally
breaks another rule to increase the likelihood of the tactic
succeeding.


Assumed Facts for Questions 1 and 2
Boat A was well ahead of B. Both boats were on the last leg of the course
in the final race of a one-design class series. Suddenly, A changed course
so that she sailed back down the course towards B and positioned herself
in a tactically controlling position over B. A then slowed B’s progress,
resulting in three boats passing them. While A was controlling B and
slowing her progress, both boats remained on the last leg of the course,
and A did not break any rule, except possibly rule 2. A had calculated her
own and B’s series scores, and had determined that if B were to be passed
by three boats A would defeat B in the series.

Question 1
Did the tactic used by A, turning back and slowing another boat’s
progress, break rule 2? Is this tactic acceptable at any time during any race
of a series?

Answer 1
A’s tactic was in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship
and fair play because the tactic was intended to benefit her own series
result. A boat may use such a tactic at any time during any race of a series
without breaking rule 2, provided that, if she is protested for using the
tactic, the protest committee finds that there was a reasonable chance that
her tactic would benefit her series result. A boat will usually be unable to
meet this criterion unless she is in the final race or races of a series in
which the scoring system permits one or more race scores to be excluded
when series scores are calculated. If she fails to meet the criterion, she
breaks rule 2.
Notwithstanding the argument in the paragraph above, a boat also
breaks rule 2 if she intentionally breaks another rule to increase the
likelihood of the tactic succeeding.
There are several formats for a ‘series’ of races. Most are simply a
single set of, for example, seven races, where the winner is the boat with
the lowest series score (see rule A2). Others, such as one-design class
championships with large fleets, involve a qualifying series followed by a
final series. For the purposes of this case, a ‘series’ is a set of races,
including the race in which the questionable tactic was used, governed by
a particular notice of race and sailing instructions.

Question 2
Would the answer to Question 1 be different if A had been unsuccessful in
her tactic – i.e., if three boats had not passed B?

Answer 2
No. A boat may use the tactic that A used even if she uses it
unsuccessfully, provided the protest committee finds that there was a
reasonable chance that the tactic would benefit her series result (see
Answer 1).

Assumed Facts for Question 3
Boat A was ahead of B. Both boats were on the same leg. A positioned
herself in a tactically controlling position over B and then slowed B’s
progress, resulting in several boats passing them. One of the boats that
passed both A and B was C. While controlling B and slowing her progress,
A did not break any rule, except possibly rule 2. B protested A for
breaking rule 2, alleging that A’s tactic was undertaken to benefit C,
whose crew were friends of A’s crew.

Question 3
What criteria should the protest committee use to decide whether or not A
broke rule 2?

Answer 3
Except when sailing under Appendix D (Team Racing), it is
unsportsmanlike for a boat to use the tactic that A used unless there is
good reason to believe that the tactic benefited or could have benefited her
own series result. A should be asked how the tactic did or could have
benefited her series result. If the committee finds that the tactic did benefit
A’s series result or had a reasonable chance of doing so, then it should not
penalize her for breaking rule 2 or consider calling a hearing under rule
69.1(a).

Assumed Facts for Question 4
Repeatedly during either a race or series, boat A positioned herself in a
tactically controlling position over B and then slowed B’s progress,
resulting in several boats passing them. Each time A did this both A and B
were on the same leg. While controlling B and slowing her progress, A did
not break any rule, except possibly rule 2. It appeared to B that A’s
slowing of B did not benefit A’s series result and was done merely to
harass B. B protested A for breaking rule 2, alleging that A’s tactic was
undertaken to harass B and not to benefit A’s series result.

Question 4
What criteria should the protest committee use to decide whether or not A
broke rule 2?

Answer 4
It is unsportsmanlike for a boat to use the tactic that A used unless there is
good reason to believe that the tactic benefited or could have benefited her
series result. A should be asked how the tactic did or could have benefited
her series result and B should be asked for any evidence that would
support her allegation. If the committee finds that the tactic did benefit A’s
series result or had a reasonable chance of doing so, then it should not
penalize her for breaking rule 2 or consider calling a hearing under rule
69.1(a).

USSA 1991/282, revised by ISAF 2009


I hope you have learned from this MrZee.

Above is Case 78 for more information on why your actions here are a breach of R2.

Remember that If you slow a boat and let others pass you are not racing to win that race against all the boats but you are just match racing that one boat - that is not the point of Fleet racing and thus your actions are not for reasons of sport and therefore a breach of R2.

And yes it is sad that some sail so unfairly and with such a lack of good sportsmanship, even if they have no idea what they are doing is so wrong...

Aloha!
Okole
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Posts: 30516
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Last Edit: 2012/07/13 03:45 By Okole.
The topic has been locked.
LINKS: Click to download:
ISAF Racing Rules of Sailing 2013-2016
Sailx Sailing Instructions
ISAF 2013-2016 Case Book
ISAF 2013-2016 Team Race Call Book
ISAF 2013-2016 Match Race Call Book
ISAF 2013 Q&A service Booklet
The US Sailing Appeals Book for 2009-2012.
The RYAs PRINCIPLES OF SPORTSMANSHIP & FAIR PLAY
Play By The Rules - The RRS in many different languages.
Sailx Quick Reference Guide

One has not won, if, in the process of winning, one has lost the respect of ones competitors. - Paul Elvstrom.



This post was prepared solely as a service to the Sailx community. Neither Sailx nor any of its volunteers, agents or assigns makes any warranty, expressed or implied, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information herein disclosed, or represents that its use would be of any benefit whatsoever to anybody. Reference herein to any specific past or present posts, protests, precedents or any comments whatsoever does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favouring by Sailx, its moderators or users. The opinions of the author expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of Sailx and shall not be used against the author in any way, means, manner or form, for any purpose whatsoever. © 2009 DogWatch/Okole

Dont worry - Be a happy Okole!
 
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